Christoper Walken as a toaster, what not to name your kid, redefining weird across the multiverse, and how oysters affected Spanish colonization of the early Americas. Plus, not see bashing! (It's important.) Welcome to Whiskey and the Weird, a podcast exploring the British Library Tales of the Weird series! This season, we're pondering what could have been with our ninth book in the vast collection, Roads of Destiny: And Other Tales of Alternative Histories and Parallel Realms, edited by Alasdair Richmond. In this episode, our featured story is An Undistinguished Boy by Gerald Kersh.
Bar Talk (our recommendations):
Jessica is watching Repeat (2021, dir. Richard Miller & Grant Archer); drinking Hudson Whiskey Do The Rye Thing.
Damien is reading Breathe In, Bleed Out by Brian McAuley & Haunted Forest Tour by Jeff Strand and James A. Moore; drinking a Natasha's Pulverized Paste (Elijah Craig whiskey sour with apple and ginger).
Ryan is watching "Wayward" (Netflix, 2025); drinking the Glenlivet 14 Cognac Cask.
If you liked this week’s story, read The Man in the High Castle by Philip K. Dick
Up next: "The Discovery of the Treasure Isles" by Amelia B Edwards.
Special thank you to Dr Blake Brandes for our Whiskey and the Weird music!
Like, rate, and follow! Check us out @whiskeyandtheweird on Instagram, Threads & Facebook, and at whiskeyandtheweird.com
Ryan: [00:00:00] we all keep saying things like, "This is not who we are," except it absolutely seems- Of course it is ... to be who, who we are, right? Time and time again, throughout our nation's history, what we are seeing right now is who we are. So the narrative of this is not who we are is actually the counterfactual point.
Welcome back, everybody. I'm Ryan Whitley.
Jessica: I'm Jessica Berg.
Damien: And I am Damien Smith.
Jessica: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Ryan: And together- ... we're Whiskey and the Weird, the podcast that for the past eight seasons has been bringing you unrivaled literary critiques of the best of yesteryear's weird fiction, as collected in the British Library's Tales of the Weird series.
Unrivaled, you say? Yes, I say, because- ... no other podcast is doing it.
Damien: That's a
Ryan: challenge- Each season- ... to
Damien: other podcasts [00:01:00]
Ryan: We have journeyed together through one edition of this new and voluminous series, and each episode we've turned to one story for in-depth discussion, but never along the table of contents' prescribed path.
If you don't want the story spoiled, make sure you take the road less traveled and read ahead. Alternatively, our summaries will do the job for you. This season, we were fated to pluck the strings of the multiverse as we take a dimensional left at the corner of reality- Oh, boy ... to trek through Roads of Destiny and Other Tales of Alternative Histories and Parallel Realms-
and very long titles- ... edited by Alistair Richmond. Look there, in the sunshine.
Damien: Where?
Ryan: Is that-
Damien: Yeah ...
Ryan: a road sign?
Damien: Did we lose
Ryan: [00:02:00] the fog? With an arrow?
Damien: I can't see.
Ryan: But which way does it point? I'm blinded by the light. And to what time-
Damien: Where ...
Ryan: time, time or, or place or where am I? Why do I have a Hitler Youth knife?
Jessica, help. What are we doing?
Jessica: That seems like a you problem, my man. , Why don't we talk about An Undistinguished Boy, you know, by Gerald Kersh?
Ryan: It sounds like a perfectly average tale, but let's do it.
Damien: Holy cow.
Ryan: Let me get to that. We've got some bar talk to do. Jess, what path have you taken tonight for your beverage?
Jessica: Oh, we went the whiskey path, believe it or not. This is the Hudson Whiskey Do The Rye Thing. I usually buy their Bright Lights Big Bourbon, but they had the rye on sale, which I, I don't know- Mm ... if I've ever had. It's good. It's- Now,
Damien: when you say- Is it the green bottle? ... when I hear Hudson from you, I [00:03:00] think of the short bottle, yellow label Bright Light Big Bourbon.
Ryan: Yeah, it's- Yeah,
Jessica: the- ...
Ryan: Jess as a whiskey bottle
Jessica: squatty little thing.
Ryan: It's, it's- Big like you ... like if you know Jess, that's so wrong. It's, it's,
Damien: yeah. Yeah. She's very tall.
Jessica: But yeah, this is good. It's, it's much sharper than the bourbon. It's, like, peppery and-
Damien: Yeah, as risers want to be, right?
Jessica: Yeah. It's good. I'm having a great time.
And I just watched a movie called Repeat, which is a 2021 movie by Richard Miller and, let's say, Grant Archer. Can't read my handwriting, but I think that's right. It is about a guy who has invented some technology to help people speak to the dead, and so it's kind of a ghost movie via, a talking spirit box situation.
It's starring everyone's favorite Taskmaster alum, Charlotte Ritchie, and she is- Those are
Damien: seven words I do not understand whatsoever ...
Jessica: you know, from Ghosts, BBC's Ghosts, but she's better in [00:04:00] Taskmaster.
Damien: Continue the words I don't understand.
Jessica: She is the mother of a girl who's gone missing. Her husband is the guy who's invented the machine to talk to ghosts.
There's a whole hullabaloo around if they should try to talk to the daughter who's missing, because that would prove that she's dead if they can get in touch with her, and also, what is this technology? Who are the ghosts? Et cetera, et cetera. It's good. It's fun. It's a 2021 low-budget sci-fi movie on-
On Tubi or whatever, but it's... If you want, a kind of a ghosty sci-fi, it's a good one.
Damien: Dope.
Jessica: Damian, what are you drinking?
Damien: Thanks, Jess. So in addition to a beautiful bottle of whiskey that I talked about last episode, I was also begifted a book called-
Ryan: Begifted ...
Damien: yeah, Uneasy Elixirs: 50 Curious Cocktails Inspired by the Works of Edward Gorey.
Jessica: Oh, that's [00:05:00] neat.
Damien: Edward Gorey has a house on Cape Cod in Massachusetts. Mm. It's now a museum. Anyone can walk through it. It's really delightful. He's most commonly associated with the Gashlycrumb Tinly- or the Gashlycrumb Tinies, but he wrote a bunch of other sort of dark tales for adults and kids. The, the 50 cocktails follow the theme beautifully.
A lot of delicious, like, variations. What I'm drinking tonight uses Elijah Craig bourbon, but more importantly, it's how it's composed. It's a whiskey sour with a twist. A twist? And it falls under the Natasha's Pulverized Paste. So Natasha's Pulverized Paste is the name of the cocktail from this book. It is essentially a whiskey sour, which is whiskey, egg white, lemon juice shaken to form a nice frothy head.
This one has- Apple cider- Mm ... and a ginger simple syrup in it makes it a little autumnal. Very balanced, very delicious. I'm loving every [00:06:00] drop. I used Elijah Craig Bourbon because that's my house bourbon right now, but otherwise it serves well. And this was just off-
Ryan: Damian, I gotta ask you, like, I love the idea of this book, but a- are the recipes, , doable with the average home bar?
Are you gonna need- No, there's a lot of- ... a lot of specialty recipes?
Damien: No, yeah. There's a lot of them- Or ingredients ... that are like, "Hey, do you have a eye of newt, toe of frog type thing?" Ah. Which kinda stinks, but they have to do something. But I love
Ryan: Edward Gorey, so I might have to get this book anyway.
Jessica: Yeah. I mean, it's a- It's a nice looking thing ...
Damien: it's a good one. It's a beautiful cover, and actually, I was flipping through and I was like, okay, you have a novelty hook for a cocktail book. They don't have to be good cocktails. See also anybody who wrote a book from Vanderpump Rules. But these are good.
They're actually craft. They go a little deep. There's, an entire addendum for different Asian herbal, like, syrups, tinctures, and reductions and otherwise. So , I'm pretty happy so far. I haven't gone too deep into it.
Jessica: Pretty happy with my alcohol.
Damien: Yeah, I'm pretty happy with my alcohol consumption.
But the [00:07:00] apple, the apple cider, we have a lot of good apple cider up in the N- New England area, and yeah, we're out of season for fresh apples, but we're not out of season for good apple cider. So using that, making an easy ginger simple syrup, and adding it to a whiskey sour classic cocktail that's already pretty balanced on its own, this is delicious.
I'll drink them all day. Gang, I decided I wanted to go a little, like, schlock horror for my reading this evening.
Ryan: Nice.
Damien: So I dove into two new authors- Nice. I'm excited ... to me, yeah, um, that are all about, like, brutal kills, crazy fast pace, like, fun, anxious B movie-esque storytelling. And so I'm gonna recommend actually two books.
Ryan: Whoa.
Damien: One is called Breathe In, Bleed Out. It's by Brian McAuley.
Ryan: Oh, king of schlocky.
Damien: It's, it's about a woman who goes off to a yoga retreat, has some demons to face, brings some friends that she has tumultuous relationships [00:08:00] with. Of course, some killer is there picking them off one by one. Loaded with red herrings, a fast read, a fun read, lightning-fast pace, just good.
The second I'll recommend is one I just wrapped up, which again, rock 'em, sock 'em, brutal killings, creature feature feel, and super simple premise. Fires up, closes down in an easy, couple hundred pages. It's The Haunted Forest Tour, co-authored by James A. Moore and probably more recognizably Jeff Strand, who wrote other perennial classics like Clowns Versus Spiders and- Halloween Sure Um, Jeff Strand, I guess really deserves to- I
Ryan: think he's also got a dinosaur book out there
Damien: And there's kind of- Haunted dinosaurs, yeah
like, velocipastor inspiration. Haunted Forest Tour is about a random forest that sprouts in the middle of the desert in New Mexico.
Jessica: Of course.
Damien: And with this forest sprouting comes a lot of [00:09:00] mythical creatures never b- before seen, from ogres to killer spiders, to vampires, to translucent, ghost fish and everything in between.
Of course, someone wants to capitalize on it, so a company is developed that builds an impenetrable tram system that ushers tourists through this fantastic wonderland, only to, at one point, fail. So in a very Jurassic Park- ... style, hapless tourists are subjected to the most horrific villains that penetrate their safe haven, kill them in all sorts of wild fashions, and it ends in a very torture porny way.
It wasn't the best book. It's not, like, loaded with literary depth, but man- Scratched that itch though, didn't it? Was it, was it fun to read? 100% fun to read. Like, under 400 pages, you get a great story that d- fires up, kills a bunch of people, and then wraps up pretty [00:10:00] tersely. So that's The Haunted Forest Tour by James A To- by James A.
Moore and Jeff Strand And Breathe In, Bleed Out by Brian McCauley, a double feature for me. What about you, Ryan?
Ryan: Nice. Hey, I'm drinking one of my recent favorite whiskeys tonight. This is the Glenlivet 14 Cognac Cast. I'm- Yes ... I'm not, I'm, yeah, I'm not normally into, like, all the finishes, but there's something about this Cognac Cast-
one that I really like, and I'm on my, like, third or fourth bottle of it. And just a shout-out-
Damien: Tonight?
Ryan: Tonight. Tonight. Just wanna give a shout-out to my friend Michael. You might be able to s- notice, Jessica and Damien, that I'm drinking this in a beautiful Glencairn whiskey glass.
Damien: Oh. It is gorgeous.
Ryan: Which was a, a Christmas present from, from my good friend Michael. He gave me a set of four of these glasses, and I'm really excited to try each of them.
Jessica: Nice. Tonight.
Ryan: Tonight. As for something I've been watching, I was in the mood [00:11:00] for a new TV series, and was flicking around Netflix, as you do, and came upon a picture of Toni Collette screaming, and decided that that was the show that- Mm
I wanted to watch. So this is the Netflix 2025 production of Wayward starring- Ooh ... Toni Collette and Mae Martin. I've watched it-
Jessica: Taskmaster alum Mae Martin?
Ryan: Is it? Is it? Stop with Taskma-
Damien: Yeah ... just let Taskmaster
Ryan: go. Okay. I feel- No? Well, no, let's not because now I feel like I'm in the club a little bit.
Damien: Oh, k- um.
Ryan: So-
Jessica: See? Now you're- Man, this is- ... the least cool one here.
Damien: Yeah, fall now.
Ryan: This is a weird show, y'all. This is a weird, weird, weird show. I really enjoyed it. It's got-
Damien: Well, yeah,
Ryan: Toni
Damien: Collette's in it, you know?
Ryan: Yeah. Let's be
Damien: honest.
Ryan: It's got a little bit of, of, like, a David Lynch, like, Twin Peaks vibe- Mm-hmm ... where, like, something's wrong with this town, and the whole town's in on it, but you're not as the viewer.
And, and Mae Martin plays the character who's also not in on it, and so you see the world through his eyes, and it is a, a bizarre story. There, it's, like, a little bit of a dark academia story. There's this [00:12:00] school. It's kind of a reform school for troubled teens. I don't know how to describe it much more than that without getting too into it.
But Toni Collette is the, is the savant-like character who has created a new technique for reforming teenagers from all of their woes and ills and, and, and bad teenagery behaviors.
Jessica: And I
Ryan: bet it works great. Um, and it's really- Yeah.
Damien: Is this...
Ryan: Not only does it work great, but it's super creepy. Is this
Damien: based on Blake Crouch's trilogy?
Like,
Ryan: Wayward Pines? No, it doesn't ha- I thought that it might be, but it doesn't have anything to do with that. Really? And I will admit that I think it started a lot better than it ended, but I still think it's worth watching. It's, it's still pretty good- Mm ... to watch if, if for no other reason than both the performances of, of Toni Collette and, and Mae Martin are, are really great.
They turn in, they turn in great performances. Okay, that's gonna take us to our author and publication info for tonight, which is pretty fascinating. Gerald [00:13:00] Kirsch was born on August 26th, 1912, in Teddington, England, into a Jewish family, and he died in 1915. Yes, that's, that's right. You heard that right.
Born in 2012, or in 1912- ... and died in 1915. Yeah, let's go into some details here. Uh, all right. So while not factually true, he was gravely ill to the point where he was actually thought to be dead when he was three years old. He claimed, though this is unproven, that a death certificate was actually drawn up for him.
Quote, "Congestion in the lungs caused the illness," and after he was presumed dead, his mother laid a fire in the, in the bedroom where he lay to keep his body from going cold. That's credited with saving his life. A coffin was even prepared before his parents went to bed that night. Then, in the middle of the night-
Kirsch woke up and [00:14:00] screamed. That would've been an interesting scene, I, I imagine. Seems like maybe the parents
Jessica: were in a hurry.
Damien: Yeah, seriously. Let's just get out. We've got a room to let.
Ryan: Yeah. I'd have loved to been a fly on the wall in that one.
Jessica: No, you, they just put you in the coffin too.
Damien: What do you think he screamed?
Ryan: Goldfish, obviously. What do you think, Jess? He, kid was hungry. Kid was hungry.
Jessica: I, I mean, is he in the coffin?
Ryan: No, no, he was just lying in bed.
Damien: Pre-coffin. Deathbed, not
Jessica: pre-coffin.
And then maybe he's just yelling because there's a coffin in his room- Right ... looming over him. That's his, that's his
Damien: scream.
Ryan: So, so five years after his first death- ... he began writing one of his, his very first published story when he was eight years old, and from then on, his pen was unstoppable. He wrote and wrote and wrote, and he lived his life, according to one critic, as a man with blazing energy.
Mm. His experiences in World War II informed a [00:15:00] lot of his writing, like in our story tonight. His style and characters were lurid, foul-mouthed, funny, and exciting, which makes it strange that his work has largely been forgotten after his death. He lived life large, and his tastes ran in the bizarre and even extreme directions.
One friend said this, quote, uh, "Dowsten brandy." He apparently would often insist on- ... serving a drink to friends that he called the Kirsch's Right Hand, which was, and the recipe follows: Orange Curacao, gin, pecan, not sure what that is, brandy, orange juice, and champagne, which sounds like a drink I'd come up with to try to be thematic for an episode.
Jessica: Mm-hmm.
Damien: And hate
Ryan: And hate And hate Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So this hard-drinking, hard-living lifestyle [00:16:00] ultimately ended his marriage and may have contributed to his second and final death of throat cancer at the age of 57. Our story tonight was first published in 1946 in one of Kirsch's own collections entitled Neither Man Nor Dog.
And that'll take us to the summary that Damien has for us tonight, and there is a, a running bet as to whether the summary will be lengthier than the story. Damien, take it
Damien: away. And yeah. The answer is no it will not. Let it be known, this story is about nine pages long. It delivers.
Ryan: It delivers.
Damien: It's very, it's very dialogue-heavy, and so at first I wanted this to be a radio drama among myself and my co-hosts, but not wanting to put them on the spot, I guess I'll just do a more traditional recap.
Boring. But I will be voicing various characters appropriately. So get ready for [00:17:00] An Undistinguished Boy by Gerald Kirsch in, I'm gonna be honest, less than two minutes. "You frigging love potato soup," says Mom to little Dolphy. "Oh, come on now, don't let it get cold." But Dolphy does, lazily spinning his spoon, and arguably the least bland soup choice in the world, potato soup.
"Are you sick?" "No." "Are you getting picked on at school?" "Stop it, Mom." Dad, listening, folds his paper. "Yeah, dear, let him be. It's probably Scruffy Knuckles with some other chaps in his class." Dad approaches little Adolf kindly. "Is it bullying? Bad grades? Acting up? Are you skipping school? Come on, be a good Brit- ah, be a good, brave boy- Mm
and tell me what's wrong, son." Mm-hmm. Dolphy tells him, "Well, nearly everybody's getting a state service medal on Speech Day. Everyone except [00:18:00] me." Dad laughs, relieved. "Oh, who cares? You're only 11. You can get one next year." "Yeah, but Herman McDonald's eight and he's getting one for catching a spy."
Ryan: Herman.
Damien: Herman.
Boo, Herman.
Two Ns.
Boo, Herman.
Da- Dad sees the angst and offers to take Dolphy fishing on Sunday. "No, I don't wanna go fishing." "Okay," says Dad. "Look, I wasn't gonna do this now, but here, take this. It's a solid nickel watch." "My father gave it to me when I turned 21, but I want you to have it at 11 because that makes sense."
The boy doesn't really react to this gift, which riles Dad. "Oh, come now. You and your silly state service." Dad starts to flare up. "To hell with their state. Are we British or are we German?" "George," says Mom, returning to the room as Dad grumbles, leaving. [00:19:00] "He didn't mean it, Dolphy. That's just how he talks sometimes."
"Oh, well," says the knobby-kneed kid. "Gotta get to school now. Bye, Mom. Hail Hitler." When he arrives at school- ... three other boys- We're getting flagged ... are calling him Private Robinson- Yeah ... and teasing him- Good
Jessica: thing we're not monetized ...
Damien: because he's the only one not to get a state service medal this cycle.
Even this tiny little runt was teasing him because he was getting one for reporting a liberal. The taunting, the shame, Dolphy heard the disappointment of headmaster Joseph Goebbels Edwards as he was being called, quote, "An undistinguished boy." Everybody drank, and that taunt echoed in his head. Fed up, he decided to visit the headmaster's office, and through choked breaths he announces, "I know of an enemy."
"Promise me a service medal?" "Out with it now," says the headmaster. [00:20:00] "Well, a man I know said, 'To hell with the state.'" Not only did little Adolf Robinson get a service medal for that attestation, it was of the first class, and he got a dagger of honor, leading his class to break the school's state service record.
Hail, hail, hooray. Hail, hail, hooray. Most of his classmates, now admirers, followed him home after class- ... cheering the whole way. And when he got home, little Adolf, well, he first smelled burnt food. Then he saw his mother, beaten, bloody, clothes torn, sitting in his father's chair. And his father was nowhere to be seen.
So Adolf, he ran away, and was later found by the SS cowering in a doorway and listening to the ticking of his big silver watch that was just given to him by his now missing father. End of story.
Ryan: Oh, wow. [00:21:00] Let me just reach for the Kleenex.
Damien: Seriously. All
Ryan: right. Did anybody else, when reading this story and coming upon the bit about the watch, think of the Christopher Walken scene in Pulp Fiction?
I took this
Damien: watch, and I started a ballet. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
100%. 110%. This is a watch. This isn't just a watch.
All
Ryan: right, I wanna talk- My father gave me this watch ... my father gave me this watch.
Damien: And I stored it up my ass.
So true story, Christopher Walken lives in an island community in Rhode Island. Oh, really?
And goes to, like, their town hall meetings all the time.
Ryan: That's- To bring up weird stuff?
Damien: I mean, I don't know, I'm not there. But I did realize this. I sent him a pitch where I wanted to use his voice for a toaster, so that the toaster would say things like, "Your toast is ready. Come pull it out of my face," [00:22:00] or whatever, instead of just a typical ding.
I'd buy that toaster. And I wrote to his agent, and his agent wrote me back and said, "Christopher loves your idea," but he didn't commit either way, and so it died on the vine. But I do have the letter from Christopher Walken's- Too bad ... agent that said- That's cool ... he loves your Christopher Walken toaster.
Ryan: I would, I would buy the toaster, Damian.
Damien: I would, too.
Ryan: All right, I wanna, I wanna talk about our, our character's name right off the bat. Why why would they name their kid this, especially when it seems like at least Dad, and probably also Mom, is opposed to this new Nazi regime? Why name your kid Adolf?
Jessica: I had a Great Uncle Adolf.
Damien: Sorry. It's like naming your kid Donald these days. You just don't do it.
Jessica: I think he, you know, was born 100 years ago. What can you do?
Ryan: Yeah, but it's like, [00:23:00] like, this whole situation is new for them.
Damien: No, but I, I think, I think there's, there's some subtext. I mean, it's a tight nine pages in this nov- or in this short story, right?
But I, I do believe that there are testaments to the new regime.
Jessica: Right. And so it's- You're so surveilled.
Damien: Right. Exactly. So you obviously name your child Adolf.
Ryan: So every other kid- But his last
Damien: name is- ...
Ryan: is
Damien: named Adolf then ... his last
Jessica: name is-
Damien: Yeah, absolutely ... his last name is Edwards. And the headmaster of the school is Joseph Goebbels', like...
Or, I'm sorry, he's the Edwards. Adolf is Adolf Robinson. So it's these, like, British tints-
Ryan: Yeah ... but
Damien: obviously-
Ryan: I mean, I get what he- ... you know, code ... I get what he's trying to do. Yeah. It just made me roll my eyes a little bit. It's a bit too on the nose.
Jessica: I think- I mean, yeah ... probably they were also, right? Like, if you're- Yeah
just sort of like, "Okay, I can't name my kid Sam or George- Right ... because it'll, it'll red flag something in the system."
Ryan: No, I can see the, like, you're gonna say, "I'm not gonna name my kid Winston or Franklin, [00:24:00] but let's, let's go ahead and name him Adolf."
Damien: But that's the thing is there's the family name and then the, like, primary name, right?
Ryan: Right. Right
Jessica: And you can tell
Damien: they don't- So part of the name is, is a, is a head nod to the state, the family name perseveres, which is why it's weird to see a Joseph Goebbels Edwards, but then- Edwards, yeah ... also like a Adolf Robinson. It just- So- ... doesn't make sense. But I think it definitely, in very short space, puts the reader in this post-Nazi victory world.
Ryan: And you can tell they- Personal side note, when, when I was in high school and, and taking high school Spanish, all the kids in my class were called by their, the Spanish version- Mm-hmm ... of their names, except there's no Spanish version of Ryan. So my teacher said, "Well, we'll just give you a name. How about Adolfo?"
I was like, "No, that's, that's terrible." I'm good. No, that's But it was, it was there, it was out.
Jessica: See?
Ryan: And that's what happened for the whole semester. I was Adolfo.
Jessica: That's funny.
Damien: Are you serious?
Ryan: Oh, yeah.
Damien: That stuck. I was, 'cause [00:25:00] there's no name for Damian, so I was Diego, which is James.
Ryan: That's better than Adolfo, I dare
Damien: say.
I mean, definitely. Definitely. Like, Diego is- ... kinda sexy, but it's also James- ... and it had nothing to do with my name. You getting Adolfo for Ryan is a- Yeah, it was a ter-
Ryan: I
Damien: mean, that's the
Ryan: tops ... it was a terrible choice.
Jessica: You can tell that they probably didn't enthusiastically name their son Adolf either, because they don't call him that.
Ryan: Yeah.
Jessica: They go with a nickname.
Ryan: At least, yeah, at least mom is... Well, maybe mom's not as enthusiastic as dad. I don't know.
Damien: There are moments of servitude that are demonstrated, but there's also- Yeah
like, resilience. So,
Ryan: so
Damien: it- In that George, the dad, mentions, like, you know, he starts to say, "Aren't you British?" But then he stops.
Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. And he- Yeah.
Damien: You're right ... there's another point that wasn't in the recap where he says like, "We don't need to concern ourselves with these damn Nazis." Mm-hmm.
Or, I'm sorry, "Damn Germans," but he cuts himself off again- He stops, yeah ... because he doesn't wanna delineate between regionalities.
Ryan: So, so what do you think little [00:26:00] Dolphy is really afraid of? Is he really afraid of not getting the medal? Is he afraid of getting bullied, or is it something else?
Damien: I mean, he's, he's 11, right?
So he yields to these temporary pressures. Mm-hmm. Peer pressures. Peer pressure's
Ryan: gonna be big, yeah.
Damien: Right. Peer pressure's gonna be big, and especially you have to, you would have to assume in a, in an alt reality where Nazi culture takes over, like it is about those accolades. It is about those, and so if he feels like he's the one that's keeping his school down, i.e. his external community from family, like he's gonna turn that around, and he literally- Mm-hmm ... sacrifices his father so that he can stand out on top amongst his peers. So I do think that the fear comes from what any 11-year-old fears right now, which is rejection from peers.
Ryan: So you think that's a well-written part of the story?
Damien: I think it's accurate.
Ryan: Yeah.
Damien: [00:27:00] Yeah.
Ryan: Jess?
Jessica: I think there's... I mean, we can, I guess, decide how much Nazi talk we can handle on one podcast.
Damien: Before we get blacklisted from every single podcast platform.
Jessica: But I think there's also, just sort of the idea of, you're living in a very fascist society, and conformity is your option, right?
Like, he's getting bullied by the kids- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... and the teacher and the headmaster for not conforming to this very specific and achievable thing. Right. All you have to do is turn in everyone you know for everything they're doing. I think that- that's probably part of it, too, is you just have, you have to do the thing that the state is telling you to do.
And the state- I think- ... is telling you to turn everyone in.
Ryan: See, I think that would be, like, the parent's concern, but I think that the kid's concern has gotta be founded in, in what every kid's concern is, is not getting bullied. I don't think he-
Damien: Yeah, it's
Ryan: how to avoid
Damien: torment ... he cares... [00:28:00]
Ryan: It's not that he cares about, like, not getting the state service medal.
It's that he cares- But he- ... about not getting the same award that everybody else is getting.
Jessica: Yeah. He, wants the medal. He
Ryan: wants- He wants to be... He wants to participate in the same thing that everybody else is doing.
Jessica: Yeah. I think, but I, I think that's what I'm saying, the conformity part of-
Ryan: Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, no, no, that's fair.
Damien: About, but maybe less about, like, rising to the top, but not causing the failure of-
Ryan: Mm-hmm ...
Damien: you know? So it's, " I don't want my lack of a medal to be the thing that drags my entire- Right ... class down."
Ryan: Sure. Right. You don't wanna be known as the kid that, that kept your- Right ... class back from- Well, it's
Damien: that-
getting the
Ryan: awards ceremony- That's that
Damien: negative- ... or the popcorn party- ... like, passive- ... or whatever.
Yeah ...
socialistic, mindset that I think is what paints socialism as a concept in a negative light. But- I
Jessica: mean, we're also in a society where you're turning in your dad for, insulting the Germans because your son's- Mm-hmm
obsessed with it. Like, that's not a f- far step to say that- No ... perhaps this boy is worried about getting turned in [00:29:00] for being the only one who isn't getting a state- I, I don't think- ...
Damien: shiny
Jessica: state medal ...
Damien: but I, but I would disagree and say I don't think that he's fearful of being turned into the state. I think he's fearful of letting down his peers.
And so by letting down his peers- Mm-hmm ... he doesn't, he doesn't contribute to the social wellbeing in the way that he thinks is most impactful, and sacrifices his familiar relationships and someone who arguably is allegiant- Like a
Jessica: father to
Damien: him ... to the regime. But, but also allegiant to the regime, but also isn't 100%, like, passively obedient to the regime.
Jessica: Enthusiastically
Damien: obedient. Is, is, is, gets pissed off because- Yeah ... his son didn't get some rinky-dink medal that means nothing. that his- Right. Right ... you know, peers were getting because it's all a big ruse. So
Jessica: he- I mean, means less than nothing, right? Like, it means you're an actively bad person. You didn't get the I'm a bad person award, you know- The, the participation in-
and your son [00:30:00] is bad ... horrors award, yeah.
Damien: I don't necessarily, I don't necessarily think that George the dad was faulting him on that. I think he was just like, "Come on, this is a stupid, like meaningless nothing. You know, to hell with the state for not giving you this dumb medal." But it wasn't because he didn't believe in the regime.
They named their kid after the Fuhrer, right? So it's like, it's obvious that they're in this, but there's also some sense of, I don't wanna say regional pride or...
Jessica: Yeah, I don't think they're in this. I think the parents understand that they have to appear as though they're in it. Right.
Exactly.
Damien: That's a toe on the line a little bit. That's it. It's all about appearances and airs, right?
Ryan: So Damian, you, you brought up the dad. J- uh, Jess, you, you brought up the dad a little bit earlier. Do you think that, that Dolphie knew- ... what was going to happen when he turned his father in?
Jessica: Abstractly, right?
Like-
Damien: I agreed. Gravitas didn't hit him at the moment that he turned him in. What he was concerned about was getting a medal.
Ryan: [00:31:00] Was the moment. He was concerned- Yeah ... about the moment- Yeah ... not about the future.
Damien: In this very 1984 where it was like, "Crap. What did I just do?"
Ryan: So what does that have to say about consequences of actions that you take or, or your culpability for what, what happens to people that whose lives you impact?
Jessica: Oof.
In this, ahem, reality we're currently in where the Nazis definitely aren't winning, it's sure hard to relate to the idea of turning people in and understanding in a vague way- I mean, this is sort
Ryan: of where I'm coming from, Jess ... right ... like, like this is, like this is not just in fiction. This is on the TV, in the news right now.
Jessica: Yeah, so the idea of, like you're turning people in for the good of, whatever fascist society you're in for sometimes is personal, but sometimes is abstract. Like, you see it with, voters who didn't expect that people from their church were gonna be [00:32:00] deported. They thought only the bad people- Right
get deported. Right. Right? So like- Or literally
Damien: themselves or
Jessica: their spouses ... or themselves, or yeah, the, the reality of
not quite understanding... I don't know. I feel like that even gives people too much credit. Willfully misunderstanding the harm that you're doing to others because you can't quite personalize that you live in the same society as- Mm-hmm ... the people that You think should not be in your society I'm
Damien: gonna be a little more harsh and call it embrace negligence.
Jessica: Like, in the words- Oh, and there's definitely people who are just, like, cheering this whole thing on
Damien: There's that, but that's not negligence. That's encouraged practice- Yeah ... right? Embrace negligence to me is, "Look, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna still, like, abide by- That feels like a
Ryan: bolded term in a, in a, in a textbook.
Is that, is that an actual... Is this a Damian coin phrase? I don't know. When
Damien: was the last time I read a textbook? All
Ryan: right. We're going with a Damian coin phrase. 20 years outside of school ... embraced [00:33:00] negligence, folks. Embraced negligence.
Damien: See the glossaries. Yeah. Please do. Where it's just, like, look, I understand the nature of the regime.
I understand what they want. Like, I'm comfortable in the fact that I can remove myself, until all of a sudden my 11-year-old supplants me in it. When he does, it disrupts my family life. I'm gone. My wife is distraught, beaten, bloodied, who knows what else, and my child is suddenly recognizing in this, like, tsunami of consequence, recognizing exactly what happens when you go off and try and, like, just keep up with the Joneses in your school and report your own father to the SS.
Jessica: Hmm.
Damien: Which is why the story ends with him sitting there, like, holding that gift of a watch, listening to it tick in some random doorway, and an SS soldier finds him and re- returns him home, right? It's very 1984. It's very, it's very oppressive, but it's not [00:34:00] entirely fiction, to be honest, because- Yeah ... at this stage we're looking at very similar...
Like, hey, if I said domestic military forces that are swooping in in various geographies and removing, without due process, individuals who fit a certain characterization-
Ryan: 10 years ago would've been unfathomable ...
Damien: 10 years would've been unfathomable. 80 years ago would've been a cert- a very certain- Yeah
like, domestic military force. And in modern times, we could all put a three-letter term to that.
Jessica: Mm-hmm.
Damien: Mm-hmm. And that's, that's the truth of the story. Particularly resonant, being as how it's 80 years after it was authored, right now I, I think that this story hits hard. It's unfortunate, but it hits hard.
Ryan: Yeah. And if you wanna do a little research at home, folks who are listening, we're recording this on the 8th of January, [00:35:00] 2026.
Damien: Yes. Do some s- so do some date checking there.
Ryan: I wanna, I wanna ask about this environment in which this family finds themselves in. The kid makes a morally reprehensible choice, which leads to the, the, the climax of the story.
But- Is it only his environment that allows him to make that choice, or is there something about him that causes him to make that choice? In, in other words, would Dolphie have made a choice, any kind of choice, that would have had a similar result in an alternate reality? This, this anthology's all about alternate realities, right?
Or is it only this, this environment that, that brings it out?
Jessica: This environment is the one that's literally rewarding him for it.
Ryan: Mm. Great
Jessica: call. You know? Very, like, direct, "Do this horrible thing, get a shiny thing, 11-year-old boy," is it, the point of [00:36:00] the story. But it's also, like, again, it's, it's January 8th in the year 2026.
Adults are doing it- Yeah, broadly ... for less. Yeah. Like, the adults who are making these decisions right now aren't doing it for any shiny medal. They're just doing it for the love of the game of being the worst people in the world. So environment, yes, but I think that, like, this story would probably be 10,000 times less effective if it was just about an adult man turning in- Right
his, neighbor.
Damien: Wholeheartedly.
Ryan: I would actually like, and for many reasons, which, some of which I'll talk about later, but I would actually like for this story to be a little bit longer to explore the idea that the kid would've e- would've, would ... from the author's perspective, would've either made the same choice or a different choice in an alternate reality.
Like, is there something- I don't know ... is there something about this kid, is there something ... W- which means is there something about each of us-
Damien: Yeah Right ...
Ryan: that would [00:37:00] lead us to make morally reprehensible choices, no matter the reality in which we're in? Or is it only environments? It's the age-old question of nature versus nurture, right?
Damien: Yeah.
Jessica: And there's an interesting way to kinda think about it of, or, or write it, if we wanted to do that and pretend we're rewriting it, is what if this kid has an older brother who- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... grew up just outside of the stuff that's happening right now? Of this
Ryan: time period, yeah,
Jessica: absolutely.
Like, that would be interesting, but then of course it is not our little six-page story.
Ryan: Right.
Jessica: And I haven't read anything else by this author, and I'm interested in reading it. This is a ... we'll talk more about that too, but- So
Ryan: apparently, like ... Yeah, and going back to the, to the author info, apparently he was very well-regarded in his own day.
He had a, a post-war novel, post-World War II novel, Flowers something. I'm, I'm blanking on the name. But Anthony Burgess of A Clockwork Orange fame- Mm-hmm ... said it was the best post-war novel to have ever been written. So that makes me curious. Like, what was it about? He had one [00:38:00] novel in which he apparently didn't distinguish, or excuse me, didn't disguise his own family members enough-
and they all sued him for libel. That's fun. And so it got pulled very quickly. I like that a lot. So that's out there, too. But, you, you heard about how hard and fast this dude lived, and he wrote the same way apparently, so I'm intrigued.
Jessica: Hmm. Yeah, I would... I'm definitely interested.
Ryan: In the intro to this whole volume, Roads of Destiny, Alistair Richmond, our editor, ties the themes of fate and destiny into the weird.
Did you buy his argument?
Jessica: Okay, I've been thinking about this. In the context of, I think I made a, a bold point in the last episode that I didn't think it was a weird story because the characters didn't know they were in a weird story, right? He, the, he just picks- Yeah, yeah ... multiple paths, but they don't interact, and so it...
he has no idea that there were even three [00:39:00] paths as an option. But in theory, that rule would apply to this. This family doesn't know they're in an alternate reality. They just think they're in the Nazi reality.
Ryan: So- None of us know we're in an alternate reality. Well,
Jessica: they are in a
Ryan: reality. No. We're only in the reality that
Jessica: we think we- Right.
But if that's the editor's- We have to be grounded to the
Damien: point that we are in a real-
Jessica: But if that's the editor's argument, that these alternate counterfactual stories are weird by default-
Damien: Mm-hmm ...
Jessica: then this is weird by default because we know that it's not- Well, I- ... the real history
Damien: I, I, I wanna... But- But I don't know if
Jessica: I buy that
Damien: that's also, but that's also fiction. We know that monster stories aren't real because- Right ... vampires don't exist, sea monsters don't exist, blah, blah, blah.
Ryan: I, I
Damien: would actually- This would make this be in the, in the same classification. That doesn't necessitate that it's weird. What I think is weird is not the alternative history, [00:40:00] but how a child would so easily, and with little influence, betray their loved ones.
That is the
Jessica: weirdest thing.
Ryan: Chewing
Damien: beef jerky. I like beef jerky. What can I say?
Ryan: It looks like you're eating a waffle cone.
Damien: Yeah, a little bit. A little
Jessica: bit. Or a dog treat.
Damien: But
Ryan: seriously- So I, I actually wanna- It could be ... I wanna bring this home in, in, in a, in a, in a way that, that we may need to cut, but I'm gonna say it out loud now, right?
We all keep... We're in the American context right now, and we all keep saying things like, "This is not who we are," except it absolutely seems- Of course it is ... to be who, who we are, right? Time and time again, throughout our nation's history, what we are seeing right now is who we are. So the narrative of this is not who we are is actually the counterfactual point.
Damien: I mean- Yes. Yes, I
would agree. That's, that's a present context. This is a [00:41:00] counterfactual context, which is the Nazis did not dominate, the Nazis were defeated, so this in retrospect, and I think it was mentioned in the preface, is that this is the first probable depiction of a counterfactual, like, Nazi regime-
Ryan: Mm-hmm
Jessica: Yeah, when was this one published?
It was...
Ryan: This is '46. This is late. Yeah, '
Damien: 46.
Ryan: Late for us, anyway.
Jessica: But early for this type of story. Early
Ryan: for this type of story. It
Damien: was, it was also mentioned that there were some speculative fiction pieces before the outcome-
Ryan: Mm ...
Damien: of the war-
Jessica: Sure ... that
Damien: painted- When it was- ... the Nazis in, in positions of power.
Ryan: Right.
Damien: But this was the first one that was like, "No, that didn't happen, but here's what could have."
Ryan: So that would have made those earlier stories alternate future histories, while this is a counterfactual.
Damien: It would've been
Ryan: speculative fiction. Counterfactual. I think it would've been speculative fiction.
Yeah. Okay. I will say that I'm open, I'm open to the thrust of this anthology, but I didn't buy his argument [00:42:00] wholeheartedly off the bat.
Jessica: I'm... I think it's an interesting thing to talk about, because there's nothing in here when you read the story that's weird other than but I think it was di- You know, like-
Ryan: Right
Jessica: like, is it a weird story if, we're in the... I, I read a story where it was like, or a novel, and I didn't like it. It wasn't very good. But it was that Detroit was part of Canada. That was-
Ryan: Mm-hmm ...
Jessica: that was all.
Ryan: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: The story was not about that. That was it. That was,
Ryan: that was it. Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah, like the story wasn't about that, it just, that Detroit was in Canada.
Ryan: That was just a thing that, that was in the background. Put your hands up for
Jessica: Canada. And I couldn't figure out why it mattered, why that was part of the story, if it was part of the story why it wasn't a bigger part of the story, and this isn't that, right? I know, I understand why this is part of the story.
But if that's all the story is-
Ryan: Mm-hmm ...
Jessica: does that make it [00:43:00] weird? It's not... Again, it's like the multiple paths thing. Like, if the- Right. Right,
Ryan: this
Jessica: is, look- ... characters have no idea that there
Ryan: was an alternate- This is our second story in the volume, and I think that they have both been interesting and, and entertaining, but I w- have not yet labeled either one of them weird.
Yeah. Personally. No,
Damien: because, uh, I gotta be honest, it's because I think that you're siloing your definition of weird into, like- I probably am ... cosmic fiction, haunted fiction, more supernatural influence, and this is something that is completely different. It is alternate timeline.
Ryan: Right.
Damien: And so it makes sense that you feel that way, and I respect that.
Ryan: I'm, I'm
Damien: op- But I do, I, I do think- ... open to having my mind changed. Yeah ... I do think that this is an expansion of the definition of weird Which is why Alastair was probably so adamant about prefacing the entire collection- Mm. Mm ... with a, "Look, you know what you think of as weird." Look, Ryan. Yeah. Ryan
Ryan: Whitney.
With a, with a, with a, with a, with a textual argument. He [00:44:00] gave examples of where these- We got sources ...
Jessica: kind of
Ryan: stories are called weird stories. Yeah.
Jessica: We got footnotes.
Damien: Right,
Jessica: exactly. Yeah. Your name is in it. It's a f- ... picture of you. I know,
Damien: I know what you're saying, Ryan. And, in theory, at a high level I would agree with you, but I do think that this is something that was just like, "I'm going to challenge your definition of weird," which is why this collection is in the British Library, Tales of the Weird.
Right.
Ryan: Fair enough. Mission accomplished. I feel challenged.
Damien: I feel ch- But then going back to what I had mentioned from the previous episode, like the concept of science fiction weirdness coming from, this is what happens when we bring in super-sized insects- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... or, scientific anomalies or weather patterns that are disruptive to, someone's everyday life.
Now it's we're creating alternate realities. Like on a scale of zero to weird, that's in the upper echelon. That's above a 50% for me.
Ryan: Right. And I will admit that I, I [00:45:00] feel like I sometimes argue out of both sides of my mouth about what's, what's weird. I'll say, "Well, like, this, this would've been really weird for its time, and so that's, that's good."
And then at other times I'll say like, I'm sure this was really weird at its time, but it doesn't hold up for me today." Yeah. Like, I do that. Like, I do that all the time. I appreciate that. Yeah. There's my con- there's my confession for th- the episode.
Damien: Thanks, R. Kelly.
Ryan: No. No, no, no. Cut that. Lord, have mercy.
Have either of you read a lot... There is a lot of this kind of fiction out there, alternate history fiction. Have you read any of it? What's your general take on it?
Jessica: So there's obviously more coming up in this collection.
Ryan: But I mean even modern stuff.
Jessica: Yeah. There's a
Ryan: lot.
Jessica: But I feel like it's like all World War II related, and-
Ryan: A lot of it is
Jessica: I don't know of anything about World War II. And so like when they're like, "Oh, this person won this specific [00:46:00] naval battle, and this story's about that," instead of... It's too s- I don't... That's too small for me. Yeah. I need bigger. I- Right. Right. I need-
Ryan: Zeroed in.
Jessica: Yeah.
Damien: To be honest, I think it's, it's easy... I don't wanna say easy, but no one is ever going to willingly support, at least in mass media, Nazis.
So it's easy to-
Jessica: Right ... craft- It's an easy villain, yeah ...
Damien: it's an easy villain to craft against. There was a time during the Cold War where it was like Russians were easy villains, but then- Mm-hmm ... you had to pull that back a bit because of weirdness in administration. Like, even today, so second season of Peacemaker, right?
Yeah. Uh, the John Cena vehicle, DC character, like the entire thing revolves around an alternate universe that is essentially this story. And so spoiler, that's not our if this, then that. But it very much is a Nazi-dominated [00:47:00] society that doesn't bleed like, red, white, and black flags and, and Hitler paraphernalia, but you find out pretty deep- Until it does
into the season. Until it does, and then all of a sudden it's like, "Why didn't we notice this before?" 'Cause everything else- Mm ... was so commonplace. Mm-hmm. People were still going to grocery stores, listening to pop culture music, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, just happened to be under the influence of Nazi Germany.
So I think that's what's most harrowing about this, and what's the weirdest about this, but also what makes it easiest to persevere through the decades, is that everyone can continue to hate Nazis until the end of time.
Ryan: Well, I can say that I haven't read a lot of this kind of alt-history fiction because I generally regard it as boring.
Jessica: So-
Ryan: Really?
Jessica: I thought-
Ryan: Interesting. Yeah.
Jessica: I thought I hadn't either.
I am looking at the Goodreads, what they have listed as the 300 best- Mm-hmm ... alternate history novels and stories, [00:48:00] and I've read significantly more of them than-
Ryan: Interesting ...
Jessica: and so some of them are like-
Ryan: G- what are some of the titles? I'm curious.
Jessica: One we're gonna talk about, number one is our if this, for obvious reasons.
O- okay,
okay.
Jessica: Uh, Alan Moore's Watchmen is on there.
Damien: There.
Jessica: Which, like, yeah. Okay. I
Damien: haven't read that, but that- That's an alternate history and also an alternate present.
Jessica: Right. So then, like, 1984, okay, same. But then, like, what's the difference between that and sci-fi? Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go.
Perfect.
Best, most perfect book in the entire world, but alternate history, but also just-
Ryan: Is it a
Jessica: f- ... sci-fi ... like,
Ryan: these are fantasy stories or-
Jessica: Yeah ...
Ryan: sci-fi stories, yeah.
Damien: Yeah, I don't know if the timeline for something like Never Let Me Go is as focused on alternate history as it is on just simply, to Ryan's point, being a fantasy novel.
Jessica: 11/22/63, the Stephen King JFK. That's an alt history book,
Damien: yeah. I mean, that's directly alt [00:49:00] history because it's- Yeah ... prevention of a traumatic, like, historical event.
Jessica: Handmaid's Tale.
Damien: See, that, to me- Is that, that's sci-fi to me ... that, that to me- Right ... is sci-fi too. I would agree.
Jessica: There is a Mark Miller Superman book called Superman: Red Son that's really fun.
Never- It's just what if-
Ryan: Never
Damien: heard of it Yeah, it's,
Jessica: uh, Superman
Damien: works for the Russians ... what if
Jessica: Superman... Yeah, he, his spaceship landed in Russia instead of the US.
Damien: Yeah, it's pretty good. You guys are
Ryan: nerds.
Damien: You read comics.
Jessica: It's actually pretty good. The Stand. Shut up. The Stand? I,
Ryan: I
Jessica: just finished reading that.
No, I, no, that's,
Damien: yeah, that's a- That's a fantasy novel.
Jessica: I'm just saying, we got some things in here that- This is
Damien: why you should ditch Goodreads. Go over to StoryGraph. I'm
Jessica: not- Please ... I don't have an account on either. I just put it on my Instagram.
Damien: Well- Oh, me ... someone's gotta track their reading habits somewhere, and I do it on every possible platform that I can because I can't talk about it on BookTok.
Jessica: Famous Men Who Never Lived by Kay Chess is, like...
Ryan: I don't know that one. [00:50:00]
Jessica: It's good. I, I liked it. It's, it's two parallel societies that, like, collapse in on each other.
Damien: Oh.
Jessica: Is that an alternate history? I mean, kind of. It's,
Damien: it sounds like- But that just- ... a merging of universe. This is... This list is honestly pissing me off.
Jessica: You... What? I'm not gonna lie.
Damien: You're giving me too many variables.
Jessica: Right. So yeah, I guess...
Ryan: Well, I don't know, Jess, like, if you continue to read all 300 of these, I wonder, like- ... what percentage of them- And
Damien: I could. I got time.
Ryan: What percentage of them would be World War II focused? Like, it's pretty- A
Jessica: lot. I just...
Yeah, there were a lot of- The problem
Damien: is Nazis are easy v- Nazis are easy villains.
Ryan: Yeah.
Damien: I just think it's an easy course to take. Like, if there's one point in American history, and assuming a lot of these are stemmed from American authors or American- Yeah, it's Goodreads ... themed storylines.
Jessica: Yeah, it's...
Damien: Yeah.
So assuming that's the case, it's real super easy to say, "Well, let's make the Nazis the villains," and what happens- And maybe
Ryan: that's- ... when the villains take over- ... maybe that's why I find
Damien: it boring ... it's weird and horrific ...
Ryan: like, uh, like I read a [00:51:00] nonfiction book a while ago. A- again, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a Florida history, Florida novel reader person.
Damien: Who
Ryan: isn't? This was a, this was a nonfiction book called The Gulf by a UF professor called Jack Davis. It reads... It's like a biography of the Gulf of, of Mexico, right? And at, at one point in there, he demonstrates to the reader that the Spanish had, at, at that time, at least these, this invading force of Spanish soldiers had a fear of eating seafood.
They just would not eat food that came from the sea. So they ate their horses, and then they starved. The Calusa Indian, by, by contrast, lived on a diet of oysters and shrimp and fish and, and, and the Calusa were enormous people by comparison. They were strong, like, really powerful physiques. And Jack Davis wondered in a, in a, in a perhaps what he considered to be a throwaway sentence, if the map of [00:52:00] the United States might not have been redrawn entirely if the Spanish invaders had just chosen to eat an oyster.
Damien: I think that is a very valid observation.
Ryan: I think that's a fascinating observation. And it's so simple- And that's the kind of alt history that I'm into.
Damien: Right. It's so simple, but it's also that butterfly effect that we- Right ... were talking about from the beginning of the season, which is there are, there are large grandeur moments that can affect your historical timeline.
And there's these
Ryan: little
Damien: small decisions- And there's the little small decisions that have the same residual effect. It just takes a little longer for that ripple to impact. These
Ryan: Spanish soldiers were weak and starving when they fought these ultra powerful natives. They ate their horses, they ate each other,
Damien: and they died.
Yeah. But what if they just decided
Ryan: to pick up a crawfish? What if they just had
Damien: a shrimp? Yeah.
Ryan: Right. Right.
I, I don't think I'm in danger of, of, of running out to the bookstore and buying, like, loads of these books, but they're out there. They're out there for you to do that if you want. There's
Jessica: at least 300 according to Goodreads. Yeah. [00:53:00]
Ryan: So what about the writing of An Undistinguished Boy? How did you feel about it?
Jessica: I liked it, and I feel like I maybe read slightly more sub- subtleties into it of the, like- Mm ... the dad... Both parents, naming their son Adolf, but not calling him Adolf, the dad being very careful about his words. Mm-hmm,
Damien: mm-hmm. Yeah. I
Jessica: liked
Damien: all that too. You
Jessica: know? Yeah. I think it was smart and was a good way to illustrate, like, even, like, what disobedience looks like- Mm-hmm
which is not possible because you have a young child, and then it doesn't matter anyway because you're gonna get ground up.
Ryan: Yeah. I, I thought the writing was very good, actually. I enjoyed it.
Damien: Yeah.
Ryan: I really... For this particular story, I personally really needed it to be longer. And I'll say what I mean. What, six pages
Damien: wasn't long enough for you?
Ryan: No. And I'll say what I mean by that. Like, this story felt to me like it was [00:54:00] an excerpt from a longer work.
Damien: Sure.
Ryan: And I don't know whether that longer work is a novel or a series of in- interconnected stories about this world.
Damien: To me, it's the latter. Yeah.
Ryan: Yeah. But I really needed this to be, to be part of something bigger and, and, and maybe it was, and I just don't know about it, but-
Jessica: Right. Neither... None of us have
Ryan: read
Jessica: it,
Ryan: it felt... Right. It felt diminished on account of that to me.
Damien: I think, I think it's interesting that you called it diminishing because I saw that for being a six-page story, it had the entire arc of a short story and was able to paint that to build empathy and sympathy toward the characters involved, to care about what happened to them in so few words and column inches.
So I... It would've... This intrigued me- Mm-hmm ... to want to learn more about this society-
Ryan: Mm-hmm ...
Damien: and to wanna hear more tales of other households.
Ryan: But I thought it's- But that's my whole point. That doesn't exist as far as I know.
Damien: Right. But I thought standalone, it served perfectly fine as a short story [00:55:00]
Ryan: Like, I see this as the, as the prologue to a novel about a different, a different part of this world.
Like, this is- And that's
Damien: very fair, but
Ryan: also- This is the prologue that, like, sets up everything ... but
Damien: also- Right ... it checks the boxes for everything necessary for a short story, from- No, it does ...
Ryan: building to
Damien: conclusion- It does ... and, characterization to empathy and sympathy for those involved.
Ryan: I'll own
Damien: to that.
And, and, and a very fast ramp-up into where we are without placating the audience and saying, "By the way, Nazis are in charge. This is- ... set in England." Yeah. "These people- I mean, there- ... are the Robinsons, but they're naming their kid Adolf- Yeah, I- ... and he appeased dear leader," you know?
Jessica: I said subtlety. This wasn't a subtle story, even if it wasn't spelled out.
No. It was like- But I mean,
Damien: it's also, it's also not subtle... There are some things that they did that weren't, that were, like, incredibly not subtle, like, "Bye, Mom. Off to school. Hail Hitler."
Jessica: Yep,
Damien: yep. Right. It's like, okay, we get it. But then there's other things that were a little [00:56:00] subtle that were like Joseph Goebbels, like Smithenstein or whatever, whi- which was just like this person was named after a Nazi second-in-command.
Yeah. And also, he's a British person who just- Yeah ... happened to change names. This is... If we're talking about Adolf as an 11-year-old, but then this full-grown adult- Mm-hmm ... who adopted a new name, like, there's a lot of subtlety in the six tight pages, and I appreciated that. So if I went back and read it again and again, which I do when I do these recaps, every time I picked up something new and I was like, "Wow, this is good."
Hmm, hmm. It's got a l- layer of depth that maybe I didn't recognize on first reading.
Ryan: How did it destiny for you, Jessica? How many alt roads are you giving this story?
Jessica: That's a great question, 'cause no one is making a- There's
Ryan: no destiny here.
Jessica: Yeah.
Damien: This, this is single alt road.
Jessica: Yeah. Like, the kid could've chosen- The whole
Ryan: thing is alt, but...
Jessica: The thing is alt, but the destiny... [00:57:00] This is more like fate. If you are- Right ... a child in a fascist society, you're gonna turn in everyone you love.
Ryan: That-
Jessica: And
Ryan: we're back to my question about environment nurturing
Jessica: the nature- Yeah, yeah. Then I think- ...
Ryan: but yeah ...
Jessica: I think this is more fate than...
Damien: Yeah, we have to, we have to change the, the, the tee up a little bit 'cause we are spoiled by O.
Henry making it, various paths in one story. This is one path. You have to live it, and here's the consequences- Mm-hmm ... of that path. But to me, super harrowing, super weird. I felt itchy when I read this story. I was just like- It's alt-y. There's a lot- Yeah, for sure ... of ickiness going on between these kids, like, trying to participate in this nationalized program that just happens to be founded in reporting your neighbors and loved ones, All Quiet on the Western Front style.
It just felt really gross, but also a little prescient and a little close to home, so.
Ryan: Okay.
Damien: For that, that reason, it was a super harrowing- tale for me in very short column [00:58:00] inches.
Ryan: Well, that's gonna take us to our whiskey rating for this episode. This is how we rate our stories here on Whiskey and the Weird, from an empty glass to the coveted full fist.
Damian, how many fingers of whiskey are you giving An Undistinguished Boy?
Damien: Yeah, y'all are gonna hate me, but I wanted more. I liked what I got, I wanted more, and it was naturally, like, darkly appealing, so I'm gonna give this four and a half fingers.
Jessica: Whoa,
Ryan: four and a half. Whoa. There we go. Look at that. Jess?
Jessica: Three. I liked the vibes. Seems like a bad thing to say about a Nazi story. I liked It spoke
Damien: to me.
Jessica: I hate- It spoke to
Damien: me.
Jessica: I hated the... Yeah, something really resonated. Oof. I liked, I liked the family stuff. I liked the dad's conflict, the, the kid- Mm-hmm ... being a, terrible little child. I think it was an efficient way to get across a point that would be less [00:59:00] effective as a story about a 40-year-old man turning in his neighbor or whatever.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You know? Like, more impactful message when it's your child.
Damien: What about you, Ry?
Ryan: Two.
Jessica: F- What? Uh, boo. All right.
Damien: Yeah, fair. I get it. Wow, we are really spinning the, uh- Yeah ...
Ryan: the whiskey rating here. We are. Two fingers of whiskey for me. Look, as I was just saying, this felt pointless to me, unless it's part of a larger structure I'm unaware of. I really liked the writing.
I'm inclined to read more Gerald Kirsch. I really am. Yeah, me too. I, I wanna look him up. I liked his, I liked his style. I didn't hate this story, but at this length it didn't do much for me. It left me unsatisfied. It felt like a moral allegory for a world I don't inhabit. And-
Damien: That's this entire collection, bro Mm.
If this is how you're gonna approach
Ryan: this entire collection- Well, and maybe this is the way this is gonna go then ...
Damien: give everyone a half a finger- Yeah. ... for every
Ryan: single
Damien: story. Right? Ryan's
Jessica: quitting.
Ryan: Maybe that's the way this is gonna go, but I
Damien: just- No, don't ...
Ryan: [01:00:00] I just, uh... Yeah, like, man. That's
Damien: tough. That's tough.
I, I feel like if this- I mean respect, respect to someone who, like, has a literary nose, but man, I really hope you, I really hope you change course at some point during this podcast.
Ryan: Well, we'll see if, we'll see what happens
Jessica: down the road. I hope you don't. I hope you hate every story. That's way more fun.
Ryan: So, so what you're saying, J- Rip your book- Both, both roads ahead are open to
Jessica: me- Yep,
Ryan: yep, yep
and I
Jessica: have to choose. Shut up. I hope-
Damien: Shut up,
Jessica: Ry ... laugh on camera. Start it on fire. Threaten Alice there. We
Ryan: will see. We will see. We will see. But if you side with Damian and you like this show- We've got something for you, Jess. This might be obvious to some, to some listeners, but what do you suggest?
Jessica: Yeah, you just have to read The Man in the High Castle.
There's no way we could- It's right there ... recommend- It's right there ... anything else. 1962, Philip K. Dick, alternate history. It is this story but set in the US, which is being controlled by Axis powers. Antics ensue.
Damien: And if, if you don't wanna read, you can also pop into the [01:01:00] Amazon Prime original series, The Man in the High Castle, which has- A good option
Jessica: I
Damien: think three, three seasons.
Jessica: You have paths for that, too, baby.
Damien: It's, it's a little more robust and character-driven than this just, "Hey, what happens if Nazis?"
Jessica: Sure. But, but the just- The Statue of
Damien: Liberty is actually the statue of Hitler, you know?
Jessica: Yeah. I mean- Oh,
Damien: okay. I get it ...
Jessica: but it is also still just the story of what if Nazis.
Damien: Correct. What if Nazis is W-I-N, which is not a win, but, is an acronym.
Ryan: You can also tune into your local news broadcast.
Jessica: Well, I was gonna say- Similar to local news ... look out your window
Damien: Yowzers. Awooga.
Jessica: Look out for your neighbors. Well- Don't be a, be a little Nazi, folks ...
Ryan: don't be a little Nazi.
Damien: Don't be a
Ryan: little Nazi. Don't be,
Damien: don't be a Dolphy. D-B-A-L-N.
Ryan: Makes for a robust bracelet. That's gonna do it for us on this episode of Whiskey and the Weird Friends. Thank you for joining us. We really appreciate you. And if you appreciate us, would you please drop us a rating or review wherever you find your podcasts?[01:02:00]
We always wanna thank Dr. Blake Brandes for providing the music for Whiskey and the Weird. And Damien, if they'd like to turn us into the authorities, where could they do that?
Damien: You stop right there. Nobody here is a Nazi. Everyone is a Nazi puncher. But if you do wanna follow us on the socials, hit us up on those meta channels.
That's Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. We are @whiskeyandtheweird, @whiskeyandtheweird on those meta properties. Also on Blue Sky. You on Blue Sky? Find us. Say hello. We'll say hi back. We spell our whiskeys with an E. We hope you do, too. If not, well, we've already talked about bashing Nazis, and we'll consider you one.
So follow us, or else.
Ryan: After we do that, Jessica, where can they find us down on the road next episode?
Jessica: We're going to go with the discovery of the Treasure Islands, so a little shift in attitude, I think.
Ryan: I do hope there's pirates ahead.
Damien: Yeah. Less political, more booty. I love it.
Ryan: That's right. I'm Ryan [01:03:00] Whitley.
Jessica: I'm Jessica Berg.
Damien: And I'm Damien Smith.
Ryan: And together, we're Whiskey and the Weird. Somebody send us home.
Damien: As always, keep your friends through the ages and your creeps in the pages.
Ryan: Good night, everybody.